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Downloaded from
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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(PENSIVE MUSIC)

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(RADIO BEEPING)

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NEWS: 'After 46 years,
Melvyn Bragg has stepped down

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from hosting the iconic art series
The South Bank Show...'

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(CRACKLES)
MAN: 'And he's inspired legions

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through more than a thousand
episodes of In Our Time.'

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(CRACKLES)'But the peer tells
friends he's not retiring just yet

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as he gets ready
to launch a campaign

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for the biggest fightback
of his life...'

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(SIGHS)

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'Looking back when I was a child,
it was a wonderful cultural life.

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Like a lot of the northern
working-class communities,

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there was so much available.

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We had good art teachers.

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There were really good choirs.

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There was dancing.

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And the libraries were great.

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I don't know whether children today
have the opportunities I had,

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and that's a real worry.'

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Culture today is on the ropes.

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It has not been taken seriously.

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It's been chipped away...

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something that can be dispensed with,

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something that doesn't
need attention.

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Well, it DOES need attention.

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(CRACKLES)
Slashing £50 million from projects

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couldn't have come at a worse time.
(CRACKLES)

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Oldham's historic Coliseum
says cuts to Arts Council funding

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means it can no longer survive.
(CRACKLES)

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The regions are in particular peril
and need particular attention.

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(CRACKLES)
We're in terrible trouble.

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And it's such a shame
when it's so easy

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and comparatively cheap
to get on with it.

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It's a bigger industry

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than the biosciences and aerospace
industries all put together.

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It's massive.
But nobody'll recognise that.

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It's regarded as
a cherry on the cake.

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Well, it isn't a cherry on the cake.
It's the cake.

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(CRACKLES) 'I've spent
over 60 years of my career

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meeting with many
of the most talented minds

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in our creative industries,
and discovering what motivated them

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to dedicate their lives
to the world of the arts.'

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(LAUGHTER, CRACKLES)
For me, art was my way out...

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Art was everything.

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It should be for everybody,

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and it should be shared, and it
should be available for everyone.

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'They're united in their conviction
that more can be done

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to ensure that the world
of the arts is taken seriously,

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and given the due it deserves.'

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Six per cent of our economy
is the creative industry.

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But for some reason, politicians
don't treat it as a big industry.

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This is the core problem
of our times,

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that we may know
the price of everything,

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but we know the value of nothing.

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'This year, I met once again

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some of the artists
I've known across my career,

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as well as meeting new ones too,

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to discover why
the arts matter to them.'

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Art is the greatest expression
of what it is to be a human being.

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'..and to find out what we can do
to stem the ebbing tide

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and put the arts
at the heart of our national life.

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SPEAKER:
Motion for debate. Lord Bragg.

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PEERS: Hear, hear.

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Why don't we have an industrial
revolution for the arts?

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Good teachers,
multiple opportunities,

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then we could indeed
make a brave new world.

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Why not? And why not start now?

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PEERS: Hear, hear.

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'The time has come for each of us
to fight for what really matters.'

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This is what we've got.
It is amazing.

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Cherish it. Develop it. Go for it.

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(PLAYFUL NOTES)

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(UPBEAT TUNE)

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(FUNKY THEME MUSIC)

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'In 1977, ITV gave me my own
arts series to produce and present.'

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Hello, this a new show.

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We're here every Saturday night
for the next six months.

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And we're going to try
to make programmes

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which will include both the latest
and the best in the arts of our time.

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'For almost fifty years,
we were on air,

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bringing what we thought
were the best arts and culture

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from around the world
to audiences in the UK.

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Ha!
Right.

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(CHUCKLES) Yes.
Good.

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(APPLAUSE) 'We even
set up our own annual awards,

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which recognised
the highest achievements

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across all the artistic genres.'

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(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

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'And there was one who made
a very singular first impression.'

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When I was a child
about ten years old,

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when most of the kids
were outside playing,

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I must confess
I would sit in front of the mirror

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and imagine that I was being
interviewed by Melvyn Bragg.

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(LAUGHTER)

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So this is the closest,
I will probably ever get.

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'Tracey Emin
has serious gravitas as an artist,

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and she speaks her mind
in a very free and engaging way.

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Following a life-threatening
cancer diagnosis in 2020,

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she's gone from strength to strength
in recent years,

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with landmark exhibitions
across the world,

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and major public commissions too.

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She's also returned to her hometown,
Margate,

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a prospect that was far from her mind

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when I interviewed her first
in the year 2001.'

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When I dream sometimes,
my dreams take place in Margate,

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but, like, a surreal kind
of Margate... in my head.

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And Margate's a memory for me,
it's a nostalgia for me.

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When I think about Margate,

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I think about it
when I was like eight or nine,

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I remember the smell of the sea,
fish and chips,

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the neon,
all the crowds of holiday-makers,

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Margate in its heyday.

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But the real Margate
is this, kind of, like, desolate...

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erm, partly derelict seaside town.

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So it's a very different place,
and it's a very different place

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from how I present it in my work,
and in my ideas as well.

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'Since that interview
almost 25 years ago,

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Margate has changed
beyond recognition,

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and is now one of Britain's
key artistic hubs.

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Much of this has been spearheaded
by Tracey herself,

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who's recently opened
her own art school in the town.'

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PRODUCER: Erm, is Melvyn able to
put a glass of water on the table?

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He can have whatever he wants.
Yeah?

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Yes, course he can.

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What a treat!
Yeah, it's brilliant, isn't it?

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I'd like to start off with Margate.

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You're certainly credited
with having transformed Margate

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into a magnet for people
to come and stay here, live here.

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Yeah, but it's not just me.
It's the town itself.

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Yeah.
Cos it is incredibly beautiful.

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The horizon, the hills,
the Georgian architecture...

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It's not because of me,

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it's because of the place allowing
that to happen as well, I think.

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You're doing good for Margate.
Mmm.

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Are you consciously...
Is that one of your conscious aims?

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Yeah.
I do other things for Margate too,

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but that's a secret, you know...
(CHUCKLES)

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I'm a Freewoman of Margate now,
which is amazing.

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Have you got robes?
I've definitely got robes.

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I got robed, I got medalled,
I got hatted. Yeah.

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I had a choice. Did I want
Freeperson, Freeman or Freewoman?

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And I said, "I've been wanting to be
a free woman in Margate all my life,

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so..."
(LAUGHS)

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It was really fantastic

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cos I thought it was just
a token nice thing.

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But actually, it means
that I do talk to the council.

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They listen to me.
I advise on certain subjects

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and certain things to do with arts,
creativity, architecture.

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It's a really nice thing
to be listened to,

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and to be taken seriously
as an artist,

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and how art affects our community.

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There's new little restaurants,
cafes, bars, vintage shops...

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All of this stuff is happening.

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And all of this
is creating jobs for people,

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and a much nicer
environment to be in.

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It's interesting the way it's been
driven by the arts, isn't it?

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The renovation, the rejuvenation...

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Like, I'm smiling saying it,
because it's about good things,

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good energy, positive things,

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which is really needed right now.
Yeah.

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About your own work...
You're happy working here?

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You're finding it
a good place to work?Yeah.

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Now, I can work anywhere.
It's so good.

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I might do it slightly differently,
depending on the scale,

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or where I am, or whatever,

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but it's always gonna be
on a full moon.

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(LAUGHS)Definitely.
It doesn't matter what happens.

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As the full moon's coming,
I'm ready, I'm rising for it.

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And I've opened myself up to
all of those kind of things now,

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and I enjoy it much more.

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I let myself go with it.

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I don't drink anymore. But I'm still
gonna go crazy on a full moon.

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I'm still gonna have
that banshee sing inside me.

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And so I have to capitalise on it
and make the most of my painting

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because I know something's
gonna come out

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which is extraordinarily unexpected,
for me, even.

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When I'm painting, I don't feel ill.

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I always say it's like those people,
you know,

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that lose their memory completely,

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and then you put them
in front of a piano, and they're...

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(LAUGHS) ..you know, playing away.

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I feel like nothing bad
has ever happened to me.

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Sounds as if you're inhabited
by another being, really?

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Well, I think so.

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I think, even at my lowest low,
art's always been there for me.

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It's never left me.

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And even if
I turned my back on it sometimes,

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it's come and pulled me back.
(CHUCKLES)

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You know, it's like a spirit,
or like my soul.

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It's the soul in me.

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And because of that now,

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I'm much more honest
and more free with my work.

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So if it surprises me,

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there's a possibility
it could surprise someone else.

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And because of that,
it means it's something new

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that I brought into the world that
hasn't been brought here before.

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And that's important.

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You've had one of
the most extraordinary careers

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of any artist I can think of.

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When did you feel that
this was the way you were gonna go?

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Because you speak always
of being impelled

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more than, it seems to me,
making choices.

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But that's my view of you.

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I was 12 when I decided
I wanted to be an artist.

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You know,
I never pursued another career.

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And for ten years, I was so broke.

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I had absolutely zero. Nothing.

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But for me,
being an artist was more important.

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Making art and working through it

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was more important
than getting a job,

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and... doing something else.

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And you went through bad times,
right?

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Yeah.
Yes.

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You went through bad times
with your health as well? Very bad.

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Because it matters very much

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that somebody who's achieved
what you've achieved

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has also been as afflicted
with grave illnesses

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as much, er, as anybody else.
It's like... Every...

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It's like, I nearly died,
erm, in December.

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And then I nearly died
the year before of septicaemia.

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But the cancer was the big one.
Yeah.

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..because I was given six months,
you know?

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And I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna
possibly die. This is it."

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And then I had squamous cell cancer,

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which is the most aggressive cancer
you can have

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and there's no cure for it, really,
it just continues.

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You can't use chemo or whatever.

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And so, erm, the only thing you
can do is have everything cut away

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that it touches, that can
possibly touch the cancer.

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So it meant
I had my bladder removed,

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I had my... a full hysterectomy.

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I had my urethra removed,

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half of my vagina,

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my, er, lymph nodes removed,

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and then part of my bowel,

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which was then turned into a stoma
for a urostomy, so I've a bag now.

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It's like walking around with an egg
that's about to break, or something.

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It's a really difficult
mental situation.

241
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,080
You can never, ever, ever relax..

242
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,520
because it's always there.

243
00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:24,920
So my life has really changed a lot,
quite dramatically.

244
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,280
But saying all that,
I'm much happier than I used to be.

245
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,280
Even when I'm sad,
I'm happier than I used to be.

246
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:33,560
Why's that?

247
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,960
Because, I think,
the bad has been taken away.

248
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,520
It's like I was cursed,

249
00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:40,880
and it was like someone was
throwing stuff at me... (WHOOSH)

250
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,000
..and it was catching me, like this.

251
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,160
And now it's all been cut away.

252
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,520
So there's nothing.
It can't catch me.

253
00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,800
And that's how I feel.
I feel much stronger mentally.

254
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,080
I was like, the girl...
you know, the girl at class

255
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,640
that sat at the back mucking around,

256
00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,960
and should've been in the front,
being really studious?

257
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,160
I'm sitting right at the front
of the class now,

258
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,360
paying absolute attention
to everything.

259
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,800
And I've got a few years
to get it right,

260
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,160
and I'm not gonna get it wrong.
That's how I feel.

261
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,440
Has it had any...
discernible influence

262
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,320
on the way you painted
and the subjects you painted?

263
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,880
Yeah, I think I paint
much more honestly now.

264
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,320
I think, before, I wanted things
to look a lot better.

265
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,560
And now I want things
to feel a lot better.

266
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,200
And that, you think,
is leading to better work?

267
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,720
I'm enjoying it a lot more.

268
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,080
I'm not gonna say
whether it's better or not better,

269
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,760
whatever anyone thinks.

270
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,960
But the fact that I'm going with it
and I'm getting stronger for it,

271
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,480
and it's keeping me alive.

272
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,000
Well, that's a good thing, isn't it?
Yes.Yeah.

273
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,680
(LAUGHS) So if anybody says,
"Her work's really gone downhill",

274
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,600
I say, "Look on the good point.
I'm still here."

275
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,040
You know?
Whatever, just deal with it, yeah.

276
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,040
Yeah. It's a time
when some people are saying

277
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,080
that in this country
the arts are in crisis.

278
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,240
That's the word
that keeps popping up.

279
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,040
The councils are cutting
their budgets to theatres,

280
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,680
and, er, galleries aren't...

281
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,960
don't have as much space and money
as they would like to do.

282
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,280
What do you feel about it?

283
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,120
Well, I think that
it's a terrible state of affairs...

284
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,800
The fact that, now, art isn't
taught in schools anymore.

285
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,120
We've got a problem.

286
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,080
Because if I hadn't
done art at school,

287
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,120
I wouldn't be sitting here now
talking to you

288
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,040
and wouldn't have achieved
what I've done.

289
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,600
And the knock-on effects as well...
That's right.

290
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,240
And I keep saying to MPs
and governments and people,

291
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,560
"Don't you understand?
Every single cup you drink from,

292
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,840
every fork you use,
every knife you use,

293
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,480
every chair you sit on,
has been DESIGNED.

294
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,440
Yes.And that design
has come from an art school.

295
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,320
How are you making
this message spread?(CHUCKLES)

296
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,120
I've stopped
banging my head against a wall,

297
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,720
and I've just started
my own art school.

298
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,360
(GRUNGY MUSIC)

299
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,840
So, shall I take you down to meet
the students, alright?Yeah.

300
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,360
There's two sides to the school...

301
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,560
There's the professional,
semi-professional artists

302
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,480
who have studios,
and they pay a very low studio rent.

303
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,440
And then the other people
are the TEARs,

304
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,800
Tracey Emin Artist Residencies,
and they don't pay anything.

305
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,920
And it's a year-and-a-half course.

306
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,160
There's places for ten people,
and it's completely free.

307
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:21,160
This is Darcy.
Darcy lives in Margate.

308
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,480
Bianca...

309
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,880
Jorge's from Brooklyn...

310
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,760
What I'm doing is working.

311
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,360
And it's not about
just giving people a space,

312
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,040
there's a curriculum,

313
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,640
there's really strict criticism
from me as well.

314
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,400
They have to write a poem a week

315
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,880
and they have to read them out
to each other.

316
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,120
And they understand that it's part
of a mental development.

317
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,880
Because I survived the cancer,

318
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,960
it was time for me
to start thinking,

319
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,320
"Well, how long have I got?
What can I do?"

320
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,120
It just all fell into place.

321
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,560
The school fell into place.

322
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,920
But I didn't expect to
have done it so well.

323
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,680
There's very few things
in this world

324
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,920
that are 100% good and positive,

325
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,840
and art is one of them.

326
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,000
Because it makes people
feel whole and wholesome and good.

327
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,040
Yeah, I really mean it.

328
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,520
And people can say, "Well,
what good is art gonna do for me?"

329
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,960
If it creates a good feeling,

330
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,080
that resonates and vibrates
through everything around us.

331
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,240
(GRUNGY MUSIC CONTINUES)
(GULLS SQUAWKING)

332
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,040
'Margate, through Tracey,
is an example

333
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,680
of doing work which you know is good

334
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,360
and which, actually,
a lot of people are drawn to.

335
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,920
And it draws them in and they
develop from it, and they add to it,

336
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,280
and they enrich their community
as well as themselves.'

337
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,840
Margate's a beacon, really.

338
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,160
Be like Margate, and we'll be OK.
(CHUCKLES)

339
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,720
(GRUNGY MUSIC FADES OUT)

340
00:15:56,728 --> 00:15:58,840
(GENTLE PIANO MUSIC)

341
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,360
'It might seem strange to say that

342
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,120
art, and particularly the power of
books, can actually save a life...

343
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,200
But I know that something like that

344
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,920
happened to me in my childhood.'

345
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,000
It was a time,
and this isn't fanciful,

346
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,360
when everybody knew where you were,
a town of 4 or 5,000 people.

347
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,760
Er, to say I knew everybody
is an exaggeration.

348
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,480
But between us, my father,
my mother and myself, we did.

349
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,120
'We moved to the pub
when I was about eight.

350
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,520
And that's when I had
a proper room of my own.

351
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,360
Reading was a big thing.

352
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,800
It got me away from everybody,
'cause it's quite a crowded place.'

353
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,840
(GENTLE PIANO MUSIC CONTINUES)

354
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,880
Did reading save my life?

355
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,200
I can't think of any other better
explanation for what happened.

356
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,960
I'm embarrassed about saying that,

357
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,440
but I don't know
what I would've done without it.

358
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,280
I had a most terrible breakdown
when I was about 13.

359
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,800
And even now, I tread very lightly
on it because it was awful.

360
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,360
I was in a terrible state.

361
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,560
I mean, I was about to be expelled
from the grammar school.

362
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,120
It was very difficult to live with.

363
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,160
I couldn't walk up street to school
without passing windows.

364
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,880
And you'd catch sight of yourself...

365
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,680
And then you look again,
and you would've moved.

366
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,920
And I'm sure there was an easy
explanation for it if I knew more.

367
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,840
I just went to pieces.

368
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,440
I developed a fear of being alone.

369
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,320
But that changed

370
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,760
when I started to read books
that were really difficult.

371
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,960
And I think it clicked

372
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,000
that the harder the books were
that I tried to read,

373
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,400
the better off I would be in my head,
I'd be OK.

374
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:55,960
That saw me through.

375
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,680
And I became addicted to it.

376
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,800
That discovery of heavy reading
did change my life.

377
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,360
'And I'm not alone.

378
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,920
For the poet Lemn Sissay,

379
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,080
writing has saved him from a life
of loneliness and destitution.

380
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,680
After being born just outside Wigan

381
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,440
to an Ethiopian mother in 1967,

382
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,520
he was brought up in the harsh
realities of the care system,

383
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,200
moving from children's home
to children's home,

384
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,160
until he broke free at 17 and
started a gutter cleaning business.

385
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,360
Despite all this, he was able
to discover his true calling

386
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,000
in the field of poetry.'

387
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,560
Gold from the stone,

388
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,640
Oil from the earth,

389
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,760
I yearned for home,

390
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,960
Ever since my birth.

391
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,120
Food from the platter,

392
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,200
Water from the rain,

393
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,440
The subject and the matter,

394
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,240
I'm going home again.

395
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,240
A, B, C... Sorry, Melvyn.
(BOTH CHUCKLE)

396
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:54,600
It's alright.

397
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,360
You'll have asked- been asked before,
and answered before...

398
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,040
When did the writing emerge?

399
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,440
I- I was writing at 12, and...

400
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,480
Writing what?
Er, poetry.

401
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,360
Er, and a staff member said,

402
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,800
"Oh, I remember you in t'
Children's Home, sat in t' corner,

403
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,080
writin' your poem, scrumplin' up
your paper and startin' again."

404
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:13,600
And that was really important.
Yeah.

405
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,480
Scrumpling up your paper
and starting again.

406
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,800
It's fascinating to know
what brought you to that?

407
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,480
When I wrote, I felt like I knew
who I was, why I was on the earth.

408
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,160
And, erm, I always felt that I
wasn't a story waiting to be a poet,

409
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,840
I'm a poet who's been...
distracted by a story.

410
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,800
What sort of background did you have?

411
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,320
Er, I was fostered as a baby.

412
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:40,160
The family were
a churchgoing Baptist family.

413
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,160
Religion sort of
held us all together.

414
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,320
But at 12 years of age,
they put me into children's homes.

415
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,120
Why was that?

416
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,720
It had to have been
because I was a naughty boy,

417
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,160
that's what I thought.

418
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,040
I'd started to take biscuits
from the tin without asking,

419
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,040
I started to stay out late at night.
(INHALES)

420
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,560
So they put me into care,
they said it was my fault.

421
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200
And they said they'd never visit me,
and they never did.

422
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,480
They call it "care"...

423
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,520
But I was never hugged as a child,

424
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,480
as a 12-year-old child,
to 18 years of age...

425
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,440
And I only realised that was
important in my adult life.

426
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,120
It's very lonely, though, isn't it?

427
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,080
It is you on your own, you know?

428
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:22,520
And to be alone and not be bitter,

429
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,240
to be alone and be a bridge-builder,

430
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,280
rather than somebody
who just sees ravines,

431
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,880
to be alone and to exercise
the strength of will

432
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,440
to let go of your own story,

433
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,920
and connect
and empathise with others.

434
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,200
You know, I've found that that is
my journey, actually, to connect...

435
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,280
And that's something I deal with
to this day.

436
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,000
And maybe that's why I write
and maybe that's why I perform!

437
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,720
Writing and literature
is a way of being

438
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,800
incredibly, intimately
close to people,

439
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,360
and yet being separate with them.

440
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,800
So, hello, goodbye, I've got to fly.

441
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,760
I know it's pretty hip
to hide your ego trip,

442
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,440
but you're not doin'
such a good job of it,

443
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,920
because for the past ten minutes,
you've been giving me sh...

444
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,400
(LAUGHTER)Give me
the long time overwritten prelude

445
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,360
of you and your anti-racist
attitude!

446
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,240
To tell you the truth, man,
I don't wanna know.

447
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,880
Exit, toilet.

448
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,480
I just wanna go.
(APPLAUSE)

449
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,400
In a sense, you were writing about
yourself as somebody else,

450
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,800
and the somebody else was
an alternative to yourself.

451
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,480
What I felt at the time is that
I was writing a witness statement.

452
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,400
I spent half of my life thinking,

453
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,000
"Is this crazy?

454
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,720
I've lost everybody. Am I mad?"

455
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,080
But I wouldn't write about that.

456
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,400
I would write about a tree...

457
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,720
And I would describe the tree.

458
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,920
And the tree would be gnarled.

459
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,400
And in fact, when I was 15,
and they gave me this exercise

460
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,520
that I had to do,
and it was to write...

461
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,840
And one of the questions in it was,
"Are you a tree?"

462
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,360
Or, "Are you a tree in a forest?"
Or, "Are you a tree on a hill?"

463
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,280
And I said, "I'm a poe-tree."

464
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,040
Ha!
I said, "I'm a poe-tree."

465
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,360
(CHUCKLES)
And I wrote it in the margin, man!

466
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,120
Poetry is what made people say,

467
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,280
"Look, this is who I am.
This is my witness statement."

468
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,280
And I knew that,
as I became known in poetry,

469
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,120
any attention that I got,

470
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,120
I would say, "Look at my past...

471
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,800
Find out why I don't have anybody."

472
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,400
This is a time
when you go out of care,

473
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,760
and you spend this...

474
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,600
you spend a certain time, er,
cleaning gutters...

475
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,800
Oh, yeah. (CHUCKLES)
..and writing poetry,

476
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,040
and putting out a pamphlet that
tells people, "I clean gutters."

477
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,120
And the other, you turn it over,
and there's a poem.

478
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,280
Yeah, that's right!

479
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,240
Do you have any
of those pamphlets left?

480
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,840
I have no pamphlets left.

481
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,760
I mean, I would give,
let me tell you this, from me,

482
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,640
£10,000,
if somebody came and brought me

483
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,240
an ASWAD Gutter Cleaning Service
leaflet.(LAUGHS)

484
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,240
We can find people in my village
in Atherton.Yeah.

485
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,040
And they'll tell you,
"Oh, yeah, I remember

486
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,840
when he was cleaning the gutters
and I remember his leaflet"

487
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,440
So, what have you got there?

488
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,360
Well, this is... my first book.
Yeah.

489
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,560
This is after I cleaned the gutters.

490
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,960
Er, and it's called
Perceptions of the Pen.

491
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,680
And it's SO 18 years of age.

492
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,040
Erm, "Old men always seem to say

493
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,880
that they have simple authority
because of their age.

494
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:18,960
No!

495
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,320
It's how you learn from your time.

496
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:24,560
I am 18 years of age.

497
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,240
My poetry is from 15 to 18..."

498
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,920
Gosh. (CHUCKLES)
This is getting me emotional.

499
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,320
"But don't categorise,

500
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:36,160
because my time,
I constructively assemble.

501
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,440
And here it is." Wow. (LAUGHS)

502
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:39,880
That's really good.

503
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,840
Yes, I can understand.
Gosh.

504
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,320
That's amazing.
It's great to share, you know.

505
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,360
Yeah. Great to read.
Eee, blimmin' heck. (CHUCKLES)

506
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,600
It's really beautiful to...
to go through these with you.

507
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,960
(CHUCKLES)
So the people who bought your book,

508
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,400
I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it,
were coal miners?

509
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,640
It is.
Erm, my housing estate in Atherton

510
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,400
was, er,
coal miners and mill workers.

511
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,240
And yeah, it was their families,
and them, who bought my book.

512
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,880
These moments where people are like,

513
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,960
"Keep going,
keep doing what you're doing."

514
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,640
And like, when you're in the middle
of the storm of your own childhood,

515
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,520
there were people who were
shouting through that storm,

516
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,480
saying, "We see you.
Keep going, Lemn. Keep going.

517
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,520
When I use the phrase,
"Art matters"...

518
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,320
how much does it matter to you?

519
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:31,000
Art is the greatest expression
of what it is to be a human being.

520
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,040
You can't do better than that.

521
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,800
The thing is,
it's not gonna go away,

522
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,040
the idea of people creating art...

523
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,080
er, and actually
setting agendas through art.

524
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,960
That- That will not go away.

525
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,040
Are you where you want to be
as a poet at the moment?

526
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,960
I think I am where I want to be
as a poet now.

527
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,640
You know, I would love to have gone
to university and studied poetry.

528
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,280
Erm...

529
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,760
I'm half the writer
that I know I could be.

530
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,080
But you are the writer that you are.
Yeah.

531
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,560
And we are all different
in our journeys.

532
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,400
And so I am the writer that I am.

533
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,320
And I'm- I'm finally OK with that.

534
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,680
(PENSIVE MUSIC)

535
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,920
'Look what was sewn by the stars

536
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,320
At night across the fields.

537
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,480
I am not defined by scars,

538
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,600
But by the incredible ability
to heal.'

539
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,040
When you say the word culture,
the first thing I think of is music.

540
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,240
Music takes you out of yourself.

541
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,960
And if you're in a choir and suddenly
you can't even hear your own voice,

542
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,880
and you're part of this sway
and this movement

543
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,040
which takes you somewhere else.

544
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,520
(CHOIR SING "YOU CAN'T ALWAYS GET
WHAT YOU WANT" BY THE ROLLING STONES)

545
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,680
Wigton was a town
of about 12 or 13 churches.

546
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,160
There were really good choirs.

547
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600
The town had a choir,
the school had a choir.

548
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,920
So a lot of really good singing,

549
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,800
run by people who knew
what they were asking you to do.

550
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,120
And they were usually
asking you to do a lot.

551
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,520
# You can't always
Get what you want...

552
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,400
When we sang, it was wonderful.

553
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,400
I've spent a lot of my life saying
you can be just as moved

554
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,760
by certain popular music
as by certain classical music.

555
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,880
I even had my own band at one stage,
the Memphis 5.

556
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,680
(CHUCKLES) Yes. Oh, you may laugh.
We were a hit once.

557
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,360
(THE ROLLING STONES VERSION
CONTINUES)

558
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,520
# You get what you need!

559
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,520
# Ahhh, yeah...

560
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,440
Music is the most penetrative
of all the arts.

561
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,240
It does reach the part that
other parts cannot reach.

562
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,960
Music can move, music can disturb.

563
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,480
Music does something other.

564
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,320
It does something more.

565
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:08,480
(CHOIR SINGING)

566
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,440
'One of the characteristics of music
is how it brings us together,

567
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,200
quite literally in choirs,

568
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,000
but also by creating
national moments of celebration,

569
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,360
from the Proms to Glastonbury.'
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

570
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,640
(STRINGS MUSIC) 'It's a powerful
engine of social mobility.

571
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,640
And more than that,
it opens the minds of young people

572
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,000
to new ways of being and seeing,

573
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,480
which is why I'm so concerned
there's been a 40% drop

574
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,680
in GCSE students studying music
in the last 15 years.'

575
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,440
(APPLAUSE)

576
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,960
'But there's still some
reasons for hope, I think.

577
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,200
I first met the cellist
Sheku Kanneh-Mason

578
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,360
when we presented him with
a South Bank Show Award in 2017.

579
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,520
A year later,
he performed at a famous wedding.'

580
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,480
(PLAYING "AVE MARIA"
BY FRANZ SCHUBERT)

581
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,080
'Since then,
he's gone from strength to strength.'

582
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,840
(PLAYING "CELLO CONCERTO"
BY EDWARD ELGAR)

583
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,120
'This summer,
he's preparing to return

584
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,480
to the Bold Tendencies venue
in Peckham,

585
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,960
a disused car park
that's been hosting

586
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,400
orchestral and chamber music concerts
for the past decade,

587
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,880
showcasing the best
in classical music today.'

588
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,400
(ORCHESTRA PLAY ROUSING MUSIC)

589
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,000
'Despite the unusual environment
and challenging acoustics,

590
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,400
it's been driving
a new generation of audiences

591
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,760
from south-east London and beyond

592
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,520
to discover classical music
for themselves.

593
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,160
What's it like playing here?

594
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,760
I love playing here.

595
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,360
It has a natural acoustic, as you
can, kind of, hear from my voice.

596
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880
The view behind is beautiful,
but when you're in the space,
it doesn't look beautiful.

597
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,280
But then, I think,
there's somehow extra focus on,

598
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,920
I guess, the beauty of the music,
which I think is...Yeah.

599
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,280
..quite an interesting, yeah,
contrast, I think,

600
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,360
between the setting and the thing.
Yeah.

601
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,040
And the train comes...
I think it's every...

602
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,720
I think that's the overground,
so it's every 15 minutes.

603
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,080
What about the aeroplanes?

604
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,960
You hear the aeroplanes,
you hear the trains.

605
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,520
Erm, you hear the, I don't know,
police sirens and buses.

606
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,800
But there's something,
once the concert starts,

607
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,440
those extra noises, in a way,
just tell you where you are,

608
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,120
but it doesn't distract, I think,
from the... from the music.

609
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,960
(CONTINUES PLAYING "PRELUDE, CELLO
SUITE NO.2 IN D MINOR" BY JS BACH)

610
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,200
(PLAYING CONTINUES)

611
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,160
(INAUDIBLE)

612
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,840
(PLAYING CONCLUDES)

613
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,720
You are keen to make plain
to a lot of people,

614
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,480
arts are good for you,
music is good for you,

615
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,320
in many different ways.
Mm-hmm.

616
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,800
But you're spreading the word,
or spreading the sound, as it were.

617
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,160
I'm, yeah, convinced
of the value of- of music.

618
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,560
But you don't think it's being
valued enough at the moment?

619
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,640
No, I don't, I don't think it is.

620
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,680
And I think it's a real shame,

621
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,920
and a disservice, to our children
to not give them the opportunity

622
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,040
to access something
that is so endless,

623
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,960
so interesting, so personal,

624
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,040
so, erm, connected to who we are
and to who other people are,

625
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,920
and teaches you empathy,

626
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:04,200
and the ability to problem-solve,
and the ability to, erm, negotiate.

627
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,880
Are you suggesting it's- it's being
neglected in schools at the moment?

628
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,440
Yeah, I think it's being
massively neglected in schools.

629
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,080
You know, I'm not saying
it's the only important subject,

630
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,640
but it seems that it's
proportionately less valued I think.

631
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,120
Well, it's always been thought of

632
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,480
as something on the side-
Something on the side, exactly!

633
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,400
It's the first thing to be cut,
if there's a cut.

634
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:23,840
"We're gonna save a bit of money,

635
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,800
we'll stop doing arts,
stop doing music."

636
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,400
Yeah. It's a shame
that it's been neglected.

637
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,280
And when I go back to
the schools that I was at,

638
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,800
and seeing the difference in

639
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,680
how music is able to be, erm, taught

640
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,040
and distributed amongst the
students, and...

641
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,800
it's massively different
to when I was, erm...

642
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,880
even when I was at school,
and that's not that long.

643
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,720
Do you think that the-
the traditional idea

644
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,200
that classical music
is for middle class persons,

645
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,080
pop music
is for working class persons,

646
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,040
do you think that
that class distinction

647
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,080
still holds its own
with musical distinctions?

648
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,560
I think that a class distinction
will certainly always be there

649
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,680
if music education
is not in schools.

650
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,280
Because at the moment,
what we have is

651
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,400
those who can afford to
access a music education

652
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,240
and those who can't.

653
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,960
If music education
becomes less and less,

654
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,680
then that field of people
who are able to access it

655
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,240
becomes narrower and narrower,
and that's terrible.

656
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,920
And do you find that
you yourself feel richer

657
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,720
because of this music that
you're close to and that you play?

658
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,680
Is it possible for you to describe
how much you get from it?

659
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,240
It's very hard...

660
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,120
erm, and I would say impossible,

661
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,320
for me to imagine
my life without music,

662
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,640
and having access
to so many different stories

663
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,400
and so many different emotions
through this music is wonderful.

664
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,080
And, erm, it gives me
such a sense of purpose.

665
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,040
Often when I listen
to a piece of music,

666
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,920
there is a very strong emotion
that it, erm, instils in me.

667
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,320
And that's a beautiful thing.

668
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,560
And to be able to escape and sit
in that place for a period of time

669
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,320
is one of the most
wonderful places to be.

670
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,920
Do you think
it's very important to you

671
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,320
that you started doing music
when you were six?

672
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,600
Yes, definitely. I'm glad that
I was, yeah, surrounded by music

673
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,840
from a listening point of view
from a young age

674
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,240
and then started having cello
lessons from the age of six.

675
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,880
And you're part of this
quite extraordinary,

676
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,960
probably unique, family.

677
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,040
Erm, seven persons
who went for music,

678
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,800
practiced it, did brilliantly.

679
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,840
Is it possible to, sort of, summarise
what that context was like for you?

680
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,240
It was wonderful.
(PLAYING CONTINUES)

681
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,000
It was really great
to be in an environment

682
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,040
where music was such a central thing

683
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,480
and something that we shared
as siblings and as a family.

684
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,560
But your mother
was phenomenally supportive.

685
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,640
Driving from Nottingham to London,

686
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,160
so that proper lessons were
given and tuition was given.

687
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,640
Yeah. For both my parents,
that meant a lot of time

688
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,320
in the car and on the train

689
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,040
and taking us to lessons
and competitions and exams.

690
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,640
To go back to
the teaching of music,

691
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,280
if you could do what you could,
whatever you wanted you to do,

692
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,840
in terms of bringing on
teaching young people music,

693
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,160
what would you do?

694
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,360
I would, erm, ensure that
everyone has the opportunity

695
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,040
to have lessons
learning an instrument.

696
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,320
Learning an instrument?

697
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,720
To a detailed and regular level,
yes.

698
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,200
You think it has to be an instrument?

699
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:47,000
It can't be just
learning to sing in a choir?

700
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,040
Oh, singing is an instrument
as well.(CHUCKLES)

701
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,200
Erm, and actually, I think I would
certainly include singing in that.

702
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:56,000
But I admire singers
and love to listen to singing.

703
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,080
Yeah.I wish I had a wonderful
voice, but I use the cello instead.

704
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,240
Well, you've a nice talking voice,
so that's a start!

705
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,280
Thank you.
(BOTH LAUGH)

706
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,400
Is there some sort of compensation

707
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,440
in the fact that music teaching
at schools is diminishing,

708
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,080
and the fact that
a place like this, a car park,

709
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,760
can be turned into a proper,
big, successful venue

710
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,400
for the best music you can play?

711
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,280
(ORCHESTRA PLAYING)

712
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,840
It's wonderfully, erm, inspiring.

713
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,240
And I think, you know, if you can
experience it in a car park,

714
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,200
then that suggests it's something
that can be experienced by many.

715
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,680
It doesn't feel like it's
something that's unaccessible.

716
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:33,960
The connection between people
is such a big part of music.

717
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000
How important has it been for you?

718
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,840
Erm, well, I'm worried about it.

719
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,480
I, like you, think
it's of great importance,

720
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,720
really serious importance...
Mm-hmm.

721
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,960
And we are, sort of,
recklessly, or thoughtlessly,

722
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,200
letting it diminish.
Mm-hmm. Scary.

723
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:51,680
Once you've lost it, you've lost it.

724
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:53,560
These things, well,
they can be built up again,

725
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,120
but they take a long time, you know?
Of course, yeah. Mm-hmm.

726
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,120
Anyway, that's probably, in my case,
for the next generation.

727
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,440
(BOTH LAUGH)

728
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,520
You can get on with it for a long
time to come, and thank God for that.

729
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,160
(CONCLUDES PLAYING BACH'S "PRELUDE")

730
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,840
Hahahaha! Good evening!

731
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,880
I am presenter of culture
to the viewer, Melvyn Barlugg!

732
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,760
Cumbria, Cumbria, art, art.

733
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,240
Oh I am! I am man!

734
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,080
Tonight, we shall be looking at
the profile of Larry Henry.

735
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,800
And there it is! Hahaha!

736
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,000
But who is Larry Henry?
What is his shoe size?

737
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,480
And is it true what they say
about him and garden vegetables?

738
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,560
Let's find out, right away!
Come on, Ziggy.

739
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,720
'I first met Lenny Henry in 1988
for the South Bank Show,

740
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,880
the same year that he launched
Red Nose Day for Comic Relief,

741
00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:00,520
for which he's now raised over £1.5bn

742
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,880
Back then, he was using his comedy

743
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,000
to challenge the stereotypes

744
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,080
of how black working-class Britons
were represented.'

745
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,720
I come over to Hengland
in the hearly '50s.

746
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,920
That's h-early with a H.

747
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,000
'Since his shift toward Shakespeare

748
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,360
and serious acting
in the last 15 years,

749
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,280
I've wondered whether
that's something

750
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:21,960
he wanted to do from the beginning.

751
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,920
But I got a little sidetracked
before I could ask the question.'

752
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,200
(SIGHS)
PRODUCER: Lenny Henry, one.

753
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:31,240
(PHONE RINGS)
Whose phone is that? Is it you?

754
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,680
I knocked it off.
For God's sake!

755
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:35,760
(SINGS) # Unprofessional...

756
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,760
I thought I...
# That's what you are #

757
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,120
Unbelievable.
(MUTTERS)

758
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,480
Alright, alright, alright.

759
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,280
How many years?
How many years of this?

760
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:44,960
Takes a bit of practice.

761
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,640
In the old days, you'd have to run
outside and get in a phone box!

762
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,080
(LAUGHS)

763
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,000
So how did you get into
the idea of being an actor?

764
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,840
So I had this determination.

765
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,880
I started to think of this idea of
maybe this is something I could do.

766
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,200
And being a mimic, I just thought,

767
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,560
"I gonna just copy
as many people as I can,"

768
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,000
because that's how you do this.

769
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,640
That's what you do
when you're on telly.

770
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,920
I took Betty out the other day.
(GIGGLES)

771
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,680
(LAUGHTER)

772
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:15,240
I took her to the pictures.
(GIGGLES)

773
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,280
To see Jaws... (INHALES)

774
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,640
She won't go near the goldfish now!
(LAUGHTER)

775
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,040
This was a new experience.
Wasn't part of my life.

776
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,760
And I was having to learn
from all these people how to do it.

777
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,920
And there was racism,
which I kind of...

778
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,920
How did you cope?

779
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,040
Er, I didn't run away...

780
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,000
I kinda leaned into it,
if the truth to be told.

781
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,320
What do you mean by that?

782
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,320
Just took it on the chin, or...?
Well, you had to.

783
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,040
Because what were you gonna do?
You were being paid to do a set.

784
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:44,440
You couldn't just walk off

785
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,040
cos somebody called you a "coon"
in the middle of your act.

786
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,960
So I, kind of, just stuck at it
in the early days.

787
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,680
I did what Charlie Williams
or those guys did.

788
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:56,680
You know, get those jokes in first

789
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,240
about being black
and being different.

790
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,880
Is that in colour?
(LAUGHTER)

791
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,280
I hope it is.

792
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,840
If it's in black and white,
you've got a negative.(LAUGHTER)

793
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,600
Ladies and gentlemen,
you may have seen

794
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,200
some of these impressions before...

795
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:12,800
but not in colour!
(LAUGHTER)

796
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,120
And then with alternative comedy,

797
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,760
I watched people like Alexei Sayle
and Ben Elton and Rick and Ade

798
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,760
not doing those kind of jokes.

799
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,840
It was like, "Oh, thank God.
You don't have to do that!"

800
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,480
(BANG)
(GRUNTS)

801
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:27,600
(THUD)

802
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,080
You can do jokes about your culture

803
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,400
and about your class
and about where you're from,

804
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,880
that isn't tainted by
this kind of...

805
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,600
overly self-loathing humour.

806
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,440
And it's important
because oftentimes,

807
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,040
comedy is seen as
the poor relation to drama.

808
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,080
But yet...

809
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,680
Victoria Wood singing
"I've had it up to here with men",

810
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:49,560
Mike Yarwood doing Denis Healey

811
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,280
and Del Boy falling through the bar

812
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,760
are the things that are indelibly
printed in people's minds.

813
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,200
(LAUGHTER)

814
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:57,760
Was there any sense that you were
building towards something?

815
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,520
Yeah. Definitely.

816
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,760
But you did go up,
up like a rocket...

817
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,600
I remember on The South Bank Show,
we interviewed you...

818
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,680
(PLAYS THE SOUTH BANK SHOW
THEME TUNE ON KAZOO)

819
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:08,840
..very early on
in the South Bank show.

820
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,680
What did you think about that?

821
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:14,920
I- I was blown away by
The South Bank Show's interest in me

822
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,800
because I was a turn
and I didn't think I deserved it.

823
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,920
And then the director
explained to me

824
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,880
that art is art,

825
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,440
but that he felt that there was
a cultural thing happening,

826
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,880
in terms of being
the first Black comic

827
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,120
to have his own show
on British television,

828
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,440
that perhaps hadn't been marked
and needed to be marked.

829
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,400
As far as intellectuality was
concerned, it was a big deal for me.

830
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,880
What about Delbert,
I mean, do you think he's regarded

831
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,960
as somebody that they think
is a stereotype?

832
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,560
Or do they think-
They laugh at him? With him?

833
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,800
When I do stand-up on stage,
it's very, er...

834
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,320
They don't expect me to come out
with stuff about politics,

835
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,840
whereas with Delbert,
or with Fred Dread or something,

836
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,160
I can be very political.

837
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,560
Suddenly the geezer, right,
the policeman, right,

838
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,640
the Old Bill, right,
the Babylon, right,

839
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,120
strolled up to my car,
put his head through the window,

840
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,320
which worried me cos it was
still wound up at the time.

841
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,200
He said, "Are you the driver
of this vehicle?"

842
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,400
I said, "Well, it's automatic,
but, I have to be here."

843
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,000
He said,
"Can you identify yourself?"

844
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,640
I looked in the mirror, I said,
"That's me." (LAUGHS)

845
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,240
Were you aware that the success
that you were having

846
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,040
was having a wider effect
in a wider world?

847
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,160
Not for a while.

848
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,600
I mean, I'm from a working-class,
Caribbean, Dudley background.Mmm.

849
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,840
Can't get any more
working class than that.

850
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,480
So I started to talk about that.

851
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,200
What do we have to do to get
more people like us on the telly?

852
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:34,120
What is this discrepancy?

853
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:35,960
Cos it is about-
in Britain, it is very much...

854
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,160
It's not just about black and white,
it's about class.

855
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,480
Oh, my fair warrior!
Oh, my dear...

856
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,760
'In 2009,
Lenny's career took a new turn

857
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,520
when he secured the leading role

858
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,240
in a Yorkshire Playhouse
production of Othello,

859
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,200
directed by the Shakespearian actor
Barrie Rutter.'

860
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:55,080
It was a hell of a jump from what you
were doing to Othello, wasn't it?

861
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,760
Sure. Sure, it was.

862
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,360
What gave you the ambition and the
nerve to do that and to bring it off?

863
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,880
There was no Othello at school.

864
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,040
It just didn't feel like
it was for a black kid from Dudley.

865
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,200
And Radio 4 said, "Well, why don't
you do a documentary series called,

866
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:09,800
'What's So Great
About Shakespeare?'"

867
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,480
And so what I started to think
was actually, maybe...

868
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,640
maybe Shakespeare could be
something I could have a go at.

869
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,200
And then they decided it was
Barrie Rutter. And he kept saying,

870
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,320
"Oh, Shakespeare!
You've gotta get it in your gob!"

871
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,760
And, "Anybody can do Shakespeare!

872
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,760
It's not just for posh people,
it's for us!"

873
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,960
And he was so vibrant,

874
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,400
and passionate about it
and robust about it.

875
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,440
And I was hooked.

876
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,680
Did you feel it was
a different sort of, er, exploration

877
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:37,400
from everything
you'd been doing until then?

878
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,760
Barrie said, "There are
transferable skills going on here."

879
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,200
Really?

880
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:43,800
"This is a soliloquy.

881
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,480
You've talked to the audience
before, haven't you?" (CHUCKLES)

882
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,200
And I said, "Yeah, I have."
(AS BARRIE) "So, well, use that."

883
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,280
"You're a general!
Act with your balls!"

884
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,400
He kept saying that to me.
(CHUCKLES)

885
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,240
What's happening is that
theatres are closing,

886
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,360
and at schools, they're not being
given that, even a small chance.

887
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,640
Yeah.Now what are you gonna do
about that?

888
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,440
I think it's all our jobs, really,
to sustain and nurture,

889
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,320
and lobby, you know,
your local council, government,

890
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,080
to say, "Come on, you can't just-
You can't cut arts out of the-"

891
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,600
You know, you can't!

892
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,560
God help them trying to get people
with some imagination in business,

893
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,480
if they've not studied the art,

894
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,880
because art is the thing that
makes you think out of the box!

895
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,280
Isn't that we want?
Mmm.

896
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,440
We want people to go,
"Actually, there's another way
of thinking about this."

897
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,160
That's art!

898
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,480
That's, "Let's do Cubism,
let's not do Realism. Let's do..."

899
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,200
"Let's just splatter something
and see what happens there."

900
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:34,480
We mustn't let it die.

901
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,160
Our kids have got to go
to the theatre.

902
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,480
And theatre's got to stop
being so bloody expensive!

903
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,480
"90 grand for a sandwich?
That's ridiculous!"

904
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,240
Why do you think it is
drifting away and disappearing?

905
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,640
Why do you think it's happening
in the last year or two?

906
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,280
What's going on?
I think it's lazy...

907
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:49,840
lazy government, really.

908
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,800
I think government
has a lot to do with this,

909
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,680
this idea of expediency, of,
"Oh, just get rid of all that."

910
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:56,400
It's numbers in a margin, isn't it?

911
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,080
Mmm.
And actually, we need art,

912
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,440
and imagination and creativity,

913
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,760
just as much, perhaps even more,

914
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,520
and we should be absolutely
elevating that.

915
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,000
(FUNKY BASS MUSIC)
'Another new voice

916
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,800
to whom The South Bank Show gave
an early platform was Maxine Peake.

917
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,920
I first saw her
when she was 21 years old

918
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,520
and receiving a scholarship to go
to drama school at RADA in London.'

919
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,600
I'd just like to say
a huge thank you

920
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,880
for providing me with
the opportunity,

921
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,960
the wonderful opportunity,
to train at RADA.

922
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,320
(SHUDDERS) Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)

923
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:33,160
'Maxine wrote over 700 letters
to local businesses in Bolton,

924
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,640
trying to put together
funds for her studies.

925
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,280
She got one positive reply.

926
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,160
She didn't know she could
take up her place at RADA

927
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,000
until the scholarship came through.'

928
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,280
..Kev wants things, then...

929
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,320
..will I get battered for it?

930
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,200
'We made two films with Maxine
while she was RADA,

931
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:54,720
and it's been a joy to see her
grow and grow ever since,

932
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,800
from her breakthrough part
in Victoria Wood's Dinnerladies...'

933
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,320
I don't really know.
(LAUGHTER)

934
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,080
'..to starring roles in Shameless,

935
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,520
Silk and Three Girls.'

936
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,560
I want you to sign every page

937
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,640
'For me,
her roles in the last few years

938
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,920
show what the British
film and TV industries do best,

939
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,960
when they hold up a mirror
to real life.

940
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,120
PRODUCER: Sorry.
No, it's- No, you take your time.

941
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,520
(CHUCKLES)
Maxine, Take One.

942
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,800
Did you always want to be
in the theatre in some way or other?

943
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,680
Yes. Though I applied
for quite a few drama schools

944
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:31,120
and didn't get in anywhere.
Drama schools in the North West?

945
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,720
Some in the North West,
some in London.

946
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,600
Manchester, erm, Metropolitan,

947
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,320
I applied three times
to get in there and I didn't.

948
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,760
But I remember thinking,
because we weren't having much luck,

949
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,080
that we should, you know,
enrol in these elocution lessons.

950
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,400
TOGETHER: Pay-Pee-Pie-Poe-Pooh.

951
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,320
Bae-Bee-Bie-Boe-Boo.

952
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,840
Bae-Bee-Bie-Boe-Boo.

953
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,720
I mean, it was very, sort of, basic,
but just to get in a room

954
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,880
and be doing something that was
moving us slightly towards

955
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,920
what we wanted to do. (CHUCKLES)

956
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:03,000
Did you feel you had to modify,
or even change, your accent?

957
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,400
I did, but I didn't do it.

958
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,600
Tighter. Mother, Mother...

959
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,280
Mother.
That's it.

960
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,000
I always say sometimes people
think "northern" is an actual...

961
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,640
Not just an accent and a location,
but it's a character trait.

962
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,000
Yes, it's an affliction really.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. (CHUCKLES)

963
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,120
What is the most popular meal
here in the canteen?

964
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,600
Arseholes on toast.
(LAUGHTER)

965
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,920
Was Dinnerladies
the big turning point?

966
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,800
That was a huge turning point.
And actually,

967
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,680
my agent had put me forward
for the part of Twinkle,

968
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:31,720
and I think Victoria Wood
had come back and said,

969
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,280
"Is there anything I can see
of her work?"

970
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,240
And they said,
"We've got this South Bank Show."

971
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,920
And she saw that. And then
that's when I got an audition.

972
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,080
And did I hear you use an uncouthity
to a male customer?

973
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,920
What?
Pardon.

974
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,320
What?
Not what. Pardon.

975
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,760
(LAUGHTER)
Eh? I said "what".

976
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,080
Well, don't. Say pardon.

977
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,600
I didn't say pardon.

978
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:53,880
(SIGHS)
(LAUGHTER)

979
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,120
Vic... she was very honest with me.
She was like, "You will be typecast.

980
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,960
You know, you're big,
you're blonde, you're northern."

981
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,640
You're not gonna say
anything like that?

982
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,000
Leave me alone!
So you won't say nothing like that?

983
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,840
"You know, you started in comedy.

984
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,360
It's gonna be a bit tough
to break out of that."

985
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,520
Cause I went for auditions
and people would say,

986
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,600
"So, were you street cast?"
(CHUCKLES)

987
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,760
"Did she find-
Where did she find you?"

988
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,840
And I was like,
"I... Oh, I- I was at RADA."

989
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,280
Yeah.And I think a lot of people
were quite shocked

990
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,480
that I wasn't some kid she'd,
sort of, plucked off the street.

991
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,920
And I think there is this thing
with class that, you know,

992
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,680
the public school system

993
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,840
imbued people with a confidence,

994
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,720
that they could and they will.

995
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,800
And I feel, coming through
the comprehensive school system,

996
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,960
that it was a bit like,
"Pff, you'll be lucky."

997
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,320
(CHUCKLES)
Has that changed much in your time?

998
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,920
I feel there's a generation now,

999
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,200
they feel, you know,
as they should do,

1000
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,880
that they have a right
to a career, to this, to that.

1001
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,080
We were still a little bit,
you know, forelock-tugging,

1002
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,840
"Thank you very much,
I'm very grateful"

1003
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,360
Tell us about how politics
entered your thinking.Yeah.

1004
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,600
Cos I'd always been
politically aware,

1005
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,840
and I suppose I didn't really, then,
understand the impact of art,

1006
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,800
I suppose the impact
that art had had on me.

1007
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,000
And it was only as, I think,
from leaving drama school

1008
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,680
and starting to realise
the importance

1009
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:16,880
of theatre, of performance,

1010
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,280
on society,
on the younger generation.

1011
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,960
I started to realise
that you do have a voice.

1012
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,120
And then, the jobs that you choose
can have an impact.

1013
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,400
And like I say, recently, look at
the post office scandal, you know,

1014
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,760
in Mr Bates vs The Post Office
and you think, "Who'd have thought?"

1015
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,640
But I think, with television...

1016
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,960
it's keep fighting
that we need those shows.

1017
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,960
Josephine Hamilton and others
vs The Post Office.

1018
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,720
Look, Alan!
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

1019
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,240
Look what we did! Look what you did!

1020
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,000
(HEARTWARMING MUSIC)

1021
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,400
My entire existence is film and TV.

1022
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,840
It matters to me, because it's
obviously what I do for a living.

1023
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,760
But it's not just a job, is it?
It's a vocation.

1024
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,000
It's an urge,
and it's in my everyday life.

1025
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,320
Other art forms,
it's a thing that keeps me sane.

1026
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,360
I couldn't live without music, I
couldn't live without art galleries.

1027
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,680
You know, it gives us
connection and community.

1028
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:14,160
All expression to me is an art form.

1029
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,880
Well, thank you very much.
That was smashing. (BOTH CHUCKLE)

1030
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,640
(FUNKY BASS MUSIC RESUMES)
(DIALOGUE INAUDIBLE)

1031
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,400
(LOW ROCK MUSIC)

1032
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:28,840
You alright, Sue?

1033
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,040
Let's get cracking,
see if we can do it.

1034
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,440
ANNOUNCER: "This is BBC Television."

1035
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,280
'You can't talk about
the arts in this country,

1036
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,560
without recognising
the central importance of the BBC

1037
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,720
and public service broadcasting.

1038
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,600
I first joined the corporation
in 1961...'

1039
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,800
Now, we're going to look at

1040
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,040
one of the most successfully recorded
love affairs of this century.'

1041
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,680
'..and I've been working there
on and off ever since.

1042
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,480
Last year,
we produced our 1,000th instalment

1043
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,840
of Radio 4's In Our Time'

1044
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,120
Hello,
we'll be talking about the Waltz,

1045
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,760
which emerged here in the 1810s,

1046
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,480
most likely from Germany...

1047
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:07,960
There are lots of waltzes...

1048
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,080
If we're talking about public service
broadcasting, which I believe in,

1049
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,320
you've gotta have people
who really believe

1050
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,360
there's such a thing
as the public good.

1051
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,080
And that's a slippery concept,

1052
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,240
but it's something
you can juggle with,

1053
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,960
something you can try to serve.

1054
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,240
Public Service Broadcasting is
trying to give the best, to the most.

1055
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,080
That's the deal.

1056
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,600
And if you can do that,
you're on the right lines.

1057
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,080
NEWSREADER: "Selection of a site
for the first television-"

1058
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,200
'The tradition of public service
broadcasting in this country

1059
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:39,120
goes back a century,

1060
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,520
when the BBC was founded
by Lord Reith,

1061
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,880
and the world
was a very different place.'

1062
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,680
Viewers often see
me and my co-announcers

1063
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:49,400
sitting in apparent comfort
like this.

1064
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,840
But in fact, as you can see,

1065
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,680
our studios are pretty busy.

1066
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,880
'By the time I arrived there
in the early 1960s,

1067
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,440
it had started to take on something
like the identity it has today.'

1068
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,560
Stand by, Alexandra Palace.

1069
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,560
This wasn't here when I started.

1070
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,480
I came in that way, down there.

1071
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:12,600
I remember going there for my final
interview with my producer...

1072
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,040
And er, about five or six weeks later
in the canteen here,

1073
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,840
Bob Miller said,
"Are you enjoying it?"

1074
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:19,360
I said, "Yeah, I really am."

1075
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,320
"Good," he said,
"They didn't want you, you know?"

1076
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,560
(LAUGHS)

1077
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:29,160
'That was in 1961, and I've stayed
in arts broadcasting ever since.'

1078
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,080
I felt like I was
Leonardo da Vinci doing his...

1079
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,320
'..making programmes
not just for the BBC,

1080
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,880
but also its fellow
public service broadcasters,

1081
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,120
ITV and Channel 4.

1082
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,680
Sometimes
I couldn't believe my luck.'

1083
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,680
Well, I knew Francis.
I'd met him at various occasions.

1084
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:48,800
And then I asked him
if he'd do a film.

1085
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,440
And then we went around the corner
to his favourite Italian restaurant,

1086
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,320
and we got absolutely plastered.

1087
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,840
I happen to be a painter,
and that's all.

1088
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,000
'But actually, in vino veritas,

1089
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,280
he was opening up. He did open up.'

1090
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,680
Reality is what exists.

1091
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,800
Are you real?
I...

1092
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,400
To me, you're real. There you are.

1093
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,320
There you are, Melvyn Bragg.

1094
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,640
You are absolutely real to me.

1095
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,480
'People knew... did they know
the truth when they hear it?

1096
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,360
And he was telling the truth
about himself.'

1097
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,600
Cos...
Why is chance more important

1098
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,520
than conscious intellect,

1099
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,440
than conscious intelligence?
Because I made images

1100
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,880
that intellect would never make

1101
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:33,240
'When we broadcast
the interview with Francis Bacon,

1102
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,440
it was the golden age
of arts television.

1103
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,080
The South Bank Show were making
30 films a year for ITV,

1104
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,320
and the BBC had some
fine arts series on the air.

1105
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,000
I always thought
of arts documentaries

1106
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,640
as the litmus test
for the health of the BBC

1107
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,840
and broadcasting more generally,

1108
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,080
which is why the dramatic reduction

1109
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,760
of cultural programmes
across BBC schedules

1110
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,240
points to a much wider crisis
that the corporation is facing.'

1111
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,800
The BBC's the biggest
arts institution we have.

1112
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,960
It's an extraordinary institution.

1113
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:09,360
And at the moment, erm,
a lot of people are attacking it

1114
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,280
'cause they want its audiences.

1115
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,640
And if it went,
you couldn't put it together again.

1116
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,720
And it's got its faults
and it's got its favouritisms in,

1117
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,160
it's got this, that and the other,
this that and the other.

1118
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:22,960
But all in all, it's tremendous.

1119
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,360
There's nothing like it
anywhere in Europe.

1120
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,200
It's a unique...

1121
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:31,360
and I emphasise that,
'cause it's true,

1122
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,840
it is a unique institution
all round town,

1123
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,760
from the World Service to Radio 4.

1124
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,560
There's nothing like it.

1125
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,400
And, er, there seems to me
to be an undercurrent

1126
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,640
to nibble away at it
and pull it down.

1127
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,920
And that has to be fought against,
not just resisted.

1128
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,320
I don't think the BBC
stands up and attacks them.

1129
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,360
Well, you should. (CHUCKLES)

1130
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:57,720
'Over the last decade or so,

1131
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,760
the BBC has seen a 30% drop
in its income, in real money terms.

1132
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,240
Somebody who has really
led the charge

1133
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,960
in championing this country's film
and TV industry in recent years

1134
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,520
is the screenwriter, comedian
and filmmaker Armando Iannucci,

1135
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,280
whose comic creations
include Alan Patridge,

1136
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:18,920
Veep's Selena Meyer...'

1137
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,200
(MUMBLES)

1138
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:24,320
'..and The Thick of It's
Malcolm Tucker.'

1139
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,720
OK? I've got on my plate
than a spinster at a wedding.

1140
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,320
That wasn't a reference to your
daughter, by the way, Andrew.

1141
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,440
So let's talk about the BBC.

1142
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,560
It is constantly threatened.
Yeah.

1143
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,920
So why's that?
What's that going on for?

1144
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:42,080
Partly, I think, politicians are a
different breed from the rest of us.

1145
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,240
And they don't really watch
television that much.Yeah.

1146
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,520
You know? Er, and if they do,
it'll be, you know, Newsnight,

1147
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,000
and the one thing
that they ought to watch

1148
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,720
so that they can say
they've watched it

1149
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,600
and look like they understand
what popular culture's like.

1150
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,680
So they'll say, "Yeah, I love-
I'm just, oh, I'm loving..."

1151
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:01,280
you know, I don't know,
The Traitors, or something.

1152
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,560
Yeah.
Erm, but they don't really get it.

1153
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,920
And therefore they think of the BBC
as news primarily.

1154
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:08,240
But the BBC is more than that.

1155
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,200
You know, you ask people,
"What is the BBC?"

1156
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,000
And actually,
they won't say the news.

1157
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,920
Maybe internationally,
they'll say the news,

1158
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,280
But they'll say, "Oh, the comedy,
the nature programmes,

1159
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,080
you know, the dramas,
the documentaries."

1160
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,240
Our creative industry
has such a, kind of,

1161
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,360
unique spread across the world.

1162
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,440
During the pandemic,
when we were in lockdown,

1163
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,560
it's culture got us through.
(CHUCKLES)

1164
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,600
That's right.
We were pigging out on culture.

1165
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,720
It's interesting. It's such
a huge part of our economy.

1166
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,120
Yeah.That's-
That's why I can't understand

1167
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,880
why it's so downgraded
in governments' priorities.

1168
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:44,440
For some reason, politicians don't
treat it as a big industry.No.

1169
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,880
And I suppose, as I did
things like the Thick Of It,

1170
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,480
and you become more aware of
what is it that politicians say,

1171
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,360
and detecting
the flaws in their argument

1172
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:54,920
or the tricks that they play.

1173
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,720
But what's really good
about The Thick Of It is that,

1174
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,280
despite the hecticness and da-da-da,
actually, people think,

1175
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,840
"Oh, this is what it's really like."
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1176
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,440
So underneath that...
Yes.

1177
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,320
..there's something else saying,
"This is what it's really like."

1178
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:08,480
No, no. I think...

1179
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,040
I personally think things
are funnier if they feel real,

1180
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,560
if they feel true.
Yeah.

1181
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,520
It's not- It's not literally true.

1182
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,880
But there's a truth about the way
the behaviour's being shown.Yes.

1183
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,920
I mean,
I did speak to lots of, you know,

1184
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,280
former ministers, civil servants,

1185
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,640
lobbyists, journalists, and so on,

1186
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,600
to get an idea of what really does
go on in the minister's office.

1187
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,240
Yeah.
And you then acquire this knowledge

1188
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,160
that, actually, there are quite
a lot of 24 and 25 year olds,

1189
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,080
special advisers,
who are kind of running things.

1190
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,480
But there's the, you know,
the enforcer

1191
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,240
who comes in from Number 10
and says,

1192
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:42,840
"No, but you've got to do this."

1193
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,480
Yeah.
And once you've set that up,

1194
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,160
you then invent your own stories.

1195
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,640
That your chair?
Oh, God, yeah.

1196
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,400
It's cool, isn't it?
It's got, erm, lumber support.

1197
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:53,480
Bin it.

1198
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,880
People don't like their politicians
to be comfortable.

1199
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,720
They don't like you having expenses.
They don't like you being paid.

1200
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,880
OK, fine.
So, er, what should I be sitting on?

1201
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,680
Shall I just get
an upturned KFC bucket?

1202
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:07,240
The BBC is
the one big central outlet

1203
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,120
that develops writers
and the performers.Mmm.

1204
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:14,440
And it is allowed
to take risks with people,

1205
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,920
you know,
just starting out as writers,

1206
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,280
starting out as actors
and comedians,

1207
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:20,840
and take some risks with them.

1208
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,920
We lose that if everything
is totally commercially...Mmm.

1209
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,840
..and all boils down to,
"How many watched it?"

1210
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:27,760
And, "How much money did we make?"

1211
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,440
Then,
the risk-taking starts reducing.

1212
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,720
They don't really see the need
to defend it.

1213
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,480
And I see nothing but the need
to defend it at the moment.

1214
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,960
The ethos within it is, "We
shouldn't make too much of a fuss.

1215
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,240
We shouldn't big ourselves up.
That's slightly rude."

1216
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,080
Why do you think
that's not happening?

1217
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,240
Because, I think,
people within the BBC

1218
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,400
don't want another fight
with the government

1219
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,280
because it always ends badly,

1220
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,840
with just less money being allocated
to them the next year.Mmm.

1221
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:54,800
Yes, I think that's true.
Yeah.

1222
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,560
I do think there's more of a danger

1223
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,880
than I can remember
there being before.Yeah.

1224
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,720
People are criticising the BBC
on that side, that side, that side

1225
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,320
that side, that side, that side.
Yeah.

1226
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:04,800
Then they become a mass,

1227
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,280
and they lose sight
of what they're doing, really.

1228
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:08,800
You know, if you lost the BBC....

1229
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,720
We were talking about sense
of community within local areas,

1230
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,160
but BBC is a sort of
community centre (CHUCKLES)

1231
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:15,640
for the whole country.
Yeah.

1232
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,040
It's the one thing where...

1233
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,440
it can get an audience watching
something simultaneously.Yeah.

1234
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,720
With streaming content now,
things are hits,

1235
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,840
but people are watching
them at different times.

1236
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,480
And it's an amazingly accidental
institution, isn't it?

1237
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,720
Yes. And the effects on ITV
and on Channel 4 and 5...

1238
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,320
You know, the standards,

1239
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,280
the quality of the ideas
and the programme-making at the BBC

1240
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,920
contributes to
the high quality of programmes

1241
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,040
on the other main channels.
Yes it does. Yes.

1242
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:49,200
'Cause it's become part of our
television tradition in the UK.

1243
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,720
It's become part of our intellectual
and emotional landscape as well.

1244
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,200
Mmm, yeah. Yeah.
And that matters. That matters.

1245
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,760
Same time, same spot,
more books next week. Good night.

1246
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,280
(CURIOUS MUSIC)

1247
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,720
'Growing up in Wigton
in the North of England,

1248
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,240
I was well aware of the legacy
of the Industrial Revolution

1249
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,680
that had made its mark on
the towns and cities all around us.

1250
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:22,880
Here was a land, a world,
that had been changed irrevocably

1251
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,480
by the introduction of railways,
mining and manufacturing

1252
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,600
almost two centuries ago.

1253
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,680
And I think that
this transformation can be a model

1254
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,480
for how we can turbocharge
the arts in this country today.

1255
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,720
Just a short drive
outside Newcastle lies Hexham,

1256
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,560
an ancient market town.

1257
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,920
Following the demise of
the steel industry in the North East,

1258
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,560
it too, like so many other areas
in this part of the world,

1259
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,880
has seen its fortunes change.

1260
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,240
A decade ago,
the sculptor Antony Gormley,

1261
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,240
best known for his nearby colossus
The Angel of the North,

1262
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,760
took over
the town's struggling foundry

1263
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:03,200
and transformed it into a centre
for the creation of his work.

1264
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,320
Out of one industry,
he created another.'

1265
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:10,920
This is the magic moment.

1266
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:12,200
Liquid light!

1267
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,920
(HOPEFUL MUSIC)

1268
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,400
And this is a technique
called lost foam.

1269
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:25,480
Literally, that...
that metal is going in

1270
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:29,200
and vaporising a foam pattern,

1271
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:35,240
and turning it from something that
is almost as light as air into mass.

1272
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,120
It's mesmerising.
It is. It's beautiful.

1273
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,000
It's always magical...

1274
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,320
Was all this machinery here
when you bought this place?

1275
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,120
Yes, we've renewed it all,

1276
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,000
restored it all, and painted it all.

1277
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,200
This whole place was built
in about 1905,

1278
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,440
as a purpose-built foundry.

1279
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,720
But it just couldn't compete
with Russia, India and China.

1280
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,480
But it's still
a powerful generation of...

1281
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,840
well, feelings of pride and
togetherness between people.Yeah.

1282
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,920
Now I never wanted to be
the owner of a foundry.

1283
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,960
But it's just been the best thing.

1284
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,800
So we kept the original employees,

1285
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,800
and then we got some people
who'd come through art school.

1286
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,200
And we joined them together,
and you know...

1287
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,440
the foundrymen had never been asked
how do you do something.

1288
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,760
Yeah.They'd just done it,
and they'd done it by rote.

1289
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,080
And suddenly, there were people
asking them questions.

1290
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:37,600
It was just a revolution.

1291
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,080
And there's a wonderful symbiosis

1292
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,480
between people who think creatively

1293
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,320
and people who'd never been, in a
way, given the opportunity to think,

1294
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,600
"Well, could we try this
a bit differently?"Yeah.

1295
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:50,880
They were given that opportunity,
and together...

1296
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:52,480
It's just been wonderful.

1297
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,440
(CURIOUS MUSIC)

1298
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,200
So you can imagine that, originally,

1299
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,440
this was blocks of foam,
blocks of polystyrene.Yeah.

1300
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,800
And now, it's solid iron.

1301
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,960
You can see that there are faces

1302
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,240
that have to be hand fettled.
Yeah.

1303
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,920
You know? This is long, hard work.
Mmm.

1304
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,080
What do you think of the state of the
arts in this country at the moment?

1305
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,680
Well, it's in danger.

1306
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,840
You know, we've seen
over the last 13, 14 years,

1307
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,920
you know, the-
the slow but inevitable erosion

1308
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,400
of the commitment to, erm,

1309
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,680
the support of the arts
in our institutions.

1310
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:44,520
That it's at least 40% below
what it was 12 years ago.

1311
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,800
But also, our education, which is
the most important single thing.

1312
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,680
The fact that the money...

1313
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,000
It's something like £9.60 per pupil,

1314
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,880
in our primary schools,
is spent on art per year.

1315
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,440
I mean, it's just... it's insane!

1316
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,800
And we've got to get it back.

1317
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,000
This is the core problem
of our times,

1318
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:07,880
that we may know
the price of everything,

1319
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:09,360
but we know the value of nothing.

1320
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,640
Art is part of human nature.

1321
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,320
This is what makes us human.

1322
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,200
Otherwise we're all going to become

1323
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:19,320
functionaries within
a late capitalist consumer society.

1324
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,280
To switch, for a moment,

1325
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,160
to the greatest revolution
there has ever been,

1326
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,000
which is the industrial revolution.

1327
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,160
That changed the world more
than any other revolution.

1328
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:34,360
A great deal of it happened up north
and in the North East here.

1329
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,320
Can you talk a bit about that?

1330
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:41,800
Well, I think that relationship
between coal, iron and engineering

1331
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,200
is really what characterises
this part of the world.

1332
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,560
The North East
has always been a place in which

1333
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,760
thinking and making happen together.

1334
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,880
In fact,
making as a form of thinking

1335
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,440
was actually embedded
in the culture.

1336
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,360
And it worries me that

1337
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,520
the evolutionary story
of those communities,

1338
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:07,080
that is about 300,
250-300 years old,

1339
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:09,240
can be lost so quickly.

1340
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,840
From the point of view of
the identity of the North East,

1341
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,680
this is not fulfilling.

1342
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,080
Now that we seem to make
financial instruments

1343
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:22,120
more than anything else
as our primary export,

1344
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:23,920
that seems to be in threat.

1345
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,200
Did the Angel of the North change
your view on what art could effect?

1346
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:29,840
It was an experiment.

1347
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:34,640
I think of the Angel
as being this wonderful amalgam

1348
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,880
of the memory of Thor's hammer,

1349
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,800
the Viking, Celtic influence
to the North East,

1350
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,000
and maybe the idea
of the crucifixion.

1351
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,480
I mean, this is an angel
that's never gonna fly.

1352
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,720
For me, what has been wonderful

1353
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:53,240
is the way that
that work has been embraced

1354
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,000
and has become, for the region,

1355
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:01,240
a symbol of hope and faith
in its own future.

1356
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:04,720
Now this programme is called
Art Matters.

1357
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:07,720
How does it matter to you?

1358
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,600
I think that making is an
intrinsic part of our nature.

1359
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,800
And without it, er,
we are simply not human.

1360
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,680
Where are our hopes and fears?

1361
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:25,120
Where are our aspirations
most powerfully registered?

1362
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,720
It's always in art, in our music...
Mmm.

1363
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,240
..in our sculpture, in our dance.

1364
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,680
And to ignore that is to ignore,

1365
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,760
in a way, the most important
things of being human.

1366
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,160
(GENTLE MUSIC)

1367
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:46,960
'All of the people in this
film have been inspiring.'

1368
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:48,680
Oh, my fair warrior!

1369
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,120
What they all found was a way to
enrich their lives through art.

1370
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:55,000
Art mattered to them

1371
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,280
because what were they
gonna do without it?

1372
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,840
It's as if a generation
has taken command of the idea

1373
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:06,120
that this is a way to live a life,
this is a way forward.

1374
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,480
'For almost 30 years, I've had a role
in our parliamentary system

1375
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:13,280
as a member of the House of Lords.

1376
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,320
It's a far-from-perfect place,

1377
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,520
but if you want
to affect real change in society,

1378
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,880
it can be a launchpad
for starting a revolution.

1379
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:22,040
Why not?

1380
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,040
Seeing how the world of culture
has transformed the lives

1381
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,160
of the people
I've met across this film,

1382
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,280
we ought to start spreading the word

1383
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:35,280
about how crucially important the
arts can be to everyone in society.

1384
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,280
In the House of Lords,
you get a chance every so often

1385
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,080
to lead an open debate.

1386
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,200
I wanted to talk about the arts.'

1387
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,160
Why is it not the equivalent
of an industrial revolution?

1388
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,000
When you go into that place
that Antony Gormley's got...

1389
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,240
When you look at Tracey
down in Margate...

1390
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:53,800
I think it can be a revolution.

1391
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,360
(SOFT ROCK MUSIC)

1392
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,840
'The arts needs to be
profoundly overhauled,

1393
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:01,080
reset, readjusted

1394
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:03,840
and given the importance
and the clout it deserves.

1395
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,320
Motion for debate:
the contribution of the arts

1396
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,640
to the economy and society.
Lord Bragg.

1397
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,040
PEERS: Hear, hear.

1398
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,560
The arts industry
needs a radical overhaul.

1399
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:18,720
At present, it's dangerously patchy,
and punching way below its weight.

1400
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,520
Last year,
there were over 3 million job roles

1401
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,640
in the creative
and cultural industries.

1402
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,040
And there could be more.

1403
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:29,120
More if we recognised and reached
the full potential...

1404
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,000
It's the opportunity
this society needs to reform itself.

1405
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,160
Why don't we have an industrial
revolution for the arts?

1406
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,800
We can no longer cut,
stint, cancel, slash,

1407
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:42,800
if we're to bring up generations

1408
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,680
whose minds and feelings
are moulded by the best work.

1409
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:48,360
Good teachers,
multiple opportunities,

1410
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,840
then we could indeed
make a brave new world.

1411
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:53,400
Why not? And why not start now?

1412
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,040
PEERS: Hear, hear.

1413
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:56,400
The arts budget...

1414
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,720
It could be increased
substantially for the arts,

1415
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,960
insignificantly for what
government spends overall,

1416
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:04,440
and it would make a difference.

1417
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:06,720
PEERS: Hear, hear.

1418
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:11,200
'The most important thing, really,
is that the whole house took to it.

1419
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:15,080
It's as if it's one of those things
that people had been waiting to hear.

1420
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:16,760
And then the newspapers took to it.

1421
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,840
It met more people, going viral.'

1422
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,000
(SOFT ROCK MUSIC CONTINUES)

1423
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,360
Looking back,
art was the biggest part of my life.

1424
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,200
Opportunities were there
and you took them.

1425
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,440
And that was the case
with an awful lot of people.

1426
01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:32,840
This country needs that

1427
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,760
because it is losing
in all sorts of other directions.

1428
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:40,120
And the arts ignite imagination...

1429
01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:43,920
and we are not quite woken up

1430
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:45,960
to how powerful it can be.

1431
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:51,120
The variety and richness

1432
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:53,440
of available possibilities
in the world

1433
01:08:53,480 --> 01:08:57,320
for what this mind can do
are enormous.

1434
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,000
Unlimited I think.

1435
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:02,720
And you're getting that going.

1436
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:04,360
That's why Art Matters.

1437
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:08,480
'If you want to support the arts
in your community,

1438
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:11,160
consider signing up
to The Campaign For The Arts,

1439
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:13,160
where you'll receive regular updates

1440
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,720
about what you can do
to champion culture in local area.'

1441
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,760
(SOFT ROCK MUSIC CONTINUES)

1442
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:22,360
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